Old, OLD Loree pics

Some nice chips out of the top… interesting reed well.

Trill keys look similar. The modern upper trill key extends further up.

Toneholes are in immaculate condition. Notice the itty bitty half-whole key.

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Ab key hugs the trill key rod much closer. It’s also shorter and more curved.

Interesting trill key there. It’s an entirely new (or rather old) hole!

No, your eyes are not playing tricks on you. The old instrument (on the right) really is that much thinner than my CL Loree (and C series instruments are that much thinner than modern instruments).

I love that itty bitty half hole key. Notice the difference in distances between the holes.

Even more of a difference in distance between the A and the G key!

Maybe they had itty bitty thumbs back then too…

The usual no adjustment screw on the F#-G# bridge.

Notice the lack of posts in this area. Unlike modern oboes, The open ring D is also connected to the E key and the F# resonance key. The E key is part of the same hinge.

Naturally, no F resonance (as Tabuteau would have wanted it!)

The bell was missing its ring. No doubt the wood had shrunk leaving the ring loose to fall off.

The grains on this piece of wood are gorgeous.

Somehow I got the feeling the instrument had been on a shelf in an attic for a long time…

A REALLY long time…

Notice the difference in grain pattern and texture between the bell/middle joint as opposed to the top joint. I believe the middle joint and bell to be palisander, while the top joint to be grenadilla.

And then… my camera battery died. :(

Shaping techiques

A reader, sparked by Patty’s post, wrote me with a few questions:

- Do you use a new one each time, or sharpen them?

Yes, I use a new one each time.

Mr. Weber says you can resharpen them…
- Why a razor blade, why not just an old reed knife
without a burr?

Mr. Weber likes to sharpen a razor blade down to a thicker part of the steel. I would never use an old reed knife, because I don’t think you could get it sharp enough to have a clean, even cut.

To answer the second question retorically. One
teacher I had (as well as most books) suggest a razor
blade, but I’ve never heard the reasoning. I do know
professional oboists that just use an old reed knife.
I’ve recently been doing a science experiment. When I
shape cane, I’ll shape 1/3 with new razor blades, 1/3
with old sharpened razor blades, and 1/3 with a
sharpened no-burr reed knife.

Now granted, shaper tips are not all the same. Some shaper tips really encourage a better shape up by the ears and how that curve shape is. But again, I would never use a reed knife. It’d be too thick of a blade, which wouldn’t allow you to get close enough to the shape without putting too much torque on the cane as it comes off. It’d rip the cane off.

Reader Question

“is oboe d’ amore more similar to the oboe or English horn?”

Good question, and I’m not sure I know the answer to this. Perhaps someone like Patty Mitchell who is a professional oboist AND and a professional English Hornist could answer this question better.

But I do know that there are two schools of thought to this. Some people believe that the d’amore should be played closer to an oboe. For example, Steven Lickman, who makes Dallas Bocals believes the d’amore should be played closer to an oboe. I can’t remember where I read (maybe even a personal email) but he suggests not using wire on d’amore reeds, unlike his common practice of putting a wire on an English Horn reed. This point is further reflected in people’s gouging techniques and shaper tips. Some people believe d’amore cane needs an entirely different gouging curve, which should measure somewhere around .65 in the middle and .50-.55 on the sides. I know for Mr. Weber’s d’amore cane, he just uses 11.0 diameter cane with an oboe gouging machine where he thickens it up. I’ve used it and it has worked well for me. RDG also sells oboe d’amore cane, which measures around .65 in the middle but has VERY thick sides. In fact, they are so thick that I shaped some pieces up on my Giacobassi tip and made some very fine English Horn reeds on the cane.

RDG also makes a tip designed by Elaine Douvas for oboe d’amore that is supposed to work well for those who just want to use regular old oboe cane. This further reflects the issue that there seems to be no one solution.

Thomas Stacy, principal English Hornist of the NYPhil obviously believes that d’amore should be played closer to d’amore. If you compare his tip dimensions to those of the Douvas tip and the RDG regular d’amore tip, you will notice a huge difference in the throat and in the flair of the tip. (3.5, 5.5, 6.7, 7.5, 7.6 on the Douvas and 3.5, 5.5, 6.7, 7.5, 7.8 on the RDG regular tip, compared to 4.5, 5.6, 6.75, 7.55 and 8.1 on the Thomas Stacy tip.) The large throat kind of makes sense considering he talked about “blowing blowing blowing” in his interview which I posted earlier so the larger throat would allow more air flow, and perhaps less back-pressure.

I’ve played the oboe d’amore three or four times now, for a total of close to a year or so, and I’ve played around with all of the above techniques mentioned. I’ve made d’amore reeds on the RDG 2 shape (which I now make oboe reeds on), my no-name d’amore shaper tip, and really wide d’amore shapes. I’ve used oboe cane, d’amore cane, and really thick d’amore cane, and they all have their strengths and differences.

I think the bottom line is most of us are not d’amore specialists or professional d’amore players. In fact, most of us are not even professional English Horn players, so ultimately, we end up trying to make something that is closer to an oboe reed (partially because we’re afraid of playing a new instrument and gravitate to what feels most comfortable, partially because it’s easiest to play.) But if you have the time, resources, and patience, learning to make d’amore reeds is a worthwhile experience and gives the player more flexibility. But it certainly does take more air and more mouth muscle.

The last note is that I think even many English Horn players debate whether they should play the EH like an oboe, or if it’s an entirely different beast. Obviously Mr. Stacy has come to his own conclusions, which works great for him. I’ve played oboe reeds, and they’re HEAVY, so in a funny sense, I’d say his oboe reeds feel more like EH reeds to me! Furthermore, Pedro Diaz states on his website states;

The English horn is neither a big oboe nor a little bassoon. It is a one-of-a-kind unique animal. That’s how it earned its place in the orchestra. Any attempt at standardization will lead to no- man’s land (perhaps more accurately, one-man’s land). No two English hornists I know think exactly alike on what they strive for. Yet, most of us face the same challenges. If you play with conviction, imagination (and in tune) your sound or “school” is secondary. When I think about sound concepts, I imagine the violoncello, tenor or alto voice, bassoon, viola and horn (I wish I could sound like a cello on the EH). It is no coincidence really. These are the instruments I play with most of the time in the orchestra. If there is one instrument I don’t think about is the oboe. I only think about the oboe in terms of function: reeds, attacks, hand position, etc. It is essential to know the oboe well, but once you are on the EH chair, you need to “divorce” yourself from your oboe habits (if you are bilingual, you know that you can only master a second language once you start thinking and dreaming in that language). But in the end, being a great oboe player can lead to your becoming an even better English hornist, provided you know “the tricks” and apply them to the EH.

Meanwhile, I recently got a hold of one of Julie Ann Giacobassi’s reeds (thanks Patty!) which looks oddly like an oboe reed. I mean, REALLY looks like an oboe reed. It’s shorter, smaller, and thinner. And she just recently retired from playing professionally. So what’s the solution? Who knows!?

A reader’s question

Ok, which is better, Gilbert gouger or Dan Ross and why? I have to buy a gouger…and an oboe. $$$$$$$

Also, how old is too old to win an audition? Is their ‘age-prejudice’ especially if you don’t currently have a permanent gig?

Good question. I personally like the RDG curve a little bit more, because I found that the blade curve produced slightly thinner sides. But it has been a long time since I’ve used either, so I can’t say which blade curve I like better for sure. However, the Ross is better made, with a nice thick bar which your carriage slides along, instead of a thinner one which can be bent on the RDG. The Ross is also about $300 cheaper if you’re comparing the cost of a new machine for a new machine.

I recently noticed that Forrest’s Music currently has a used RDG for $900. There is also a used one on ebay for $250 starting price. This is actually a pretty reasonable price for a used one, and it’d be worth calling them up and asking them who set it up. If John their repairman set it up, it’s probably halfway decent. If you bought it, tried it out and wanted to sell it again, I doubt you’d lose a whole lot of money because you probably could sell it for the same price. Meanwhile, sometimes you’ll see a Ross machine on ebay selling for $400 or so, which means about a $600 price loss.

All of this is assuming you’re stuck on a single radius gouging machine, which I really don’t enjoy to begin with. I have three double radius gouging machines, and would like to sell one of them. If you’re interested in buying a used double radius gouging machine, let me know!

As for your age prejudice question, I’m not really sure, but I do know that John Ferillo just won the Boston Symphony job and would be considered “middle-aged”. Most audition preliminary rounds are behind curtains, so everyone is on an equal playing ground through then.

Reader Question: Sharp reeds

 

Hey, reed question for you. Do you use 10-10.5 or 0.5-11 diameter cane with the Weber 1B shape? For a while there with the Gilbert-1 I was getting really wide openings all the time, so when I ordered the W1B I got 10.5-11. I’ve had a few reeds turn out well, but in general the openings have been narrower than I’d like.

Another rambling. I tend to be producing sharp reeds. They’re not short (all > 70 mm). This may be the result of too-narrow openings. As I understand it, the other things that can cause sharpness is overscraping the reed or leaving too much wood on the reed. I’ve found I can lower the pitch slightly by scraping the bottom of the heart (lengthening the back), but this often isn’t enough. Any other thoughts for my sharpness dilemma? FWIW my typical
dimensions are:

• Overall length 70 to 71 (sometimes as long as 72)
• Tip side starts at 66-67, tip middle starts at 67-68.
• Top of back (bottom of heart) at 61
• Bottom of back 50 to 52

Response, Resistance, and tone quality are good. I was having some problems with stability (particularly of 3rd octave B), but I’ve got this mostly under control by adjusting my tip scrape. It’s just these reeds crow C# - D, and play about 20 cents sharp.

I prefer Grimaud’s 10.5 (I always use 10-10.5), however Mr. Weber himself likes to use 10.5-11. Regarding your sharpness, I would suggest assuming that your scrape is far enough back (3 or 4mm from the string) and deep enough (thinnest point right behind the heart around .30?), I’d suggest you taking out of the heart, specifically DIRECTLY ON THE SPINE. I am not sure what your other cane was gouged on, whether be a double radius or a single radius, but I know Mr. Weber’s gouge has a bit of an internal spine, perhaps moreso than other double radius gouges. You have that dial indicator, measure the thickness of the reed right on the spine. I usually keep mine around .46-.45. From just looking at it, it can be misleading since the thickest spine protrudes inward (inside the curve) rather than scraping a spine from the outward (does this make sense?) That would be my best guess.

Your high B’s are flat, eh? It could be related to your purportions. 70-71 sounds a tad long. My 1-B reeds never end up over 70, and usually fall between 69-70. If you scrape more out of the heart, your pitch will go down, which will make you want to chop the tip a bit. Make sure to bring your purportions back a bit, perhaps shortening your windows and shifting the heart/tip back a mm or so.

These are my best suggestions. Hope they’re helpful.

A question from a reader: RDG 2

A reader writes:

I’m interested in your use of a wide shape like RDG 2. How do you get them up to pitch? I find that they tend to play and crow pretty flat for me.

My response:

I’m not sure how much I can tell you about my use of the RDG-2. But what I can tell you is this:

• The gouge must be strong enough on the sides and thick enough in the center to support the wide shape. Otherwise it will always sag in the upper register, regardless of how well you scrape it.
• My lengths usually end up around 69, sometimes as short as 68.5 (but playing 440) and sometimes as long as 69.5, but never any longer or shorter.
• From the thread to the beginning of the window, I leave a good 4 mm or so of bark. The more bark you leave, the higher pitch it will have (and more stability) but less depth in the tone.

There’s several pictures on my blog of RDG-2 reeds. I know there’s one picture with a Weber 1-B, 1-C, and RDG 2 side by side for you to see the difference.

Do you gouge your own cane? I think they key to an RDG 2 reed is really getting the gouge just right to be strong enough.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

His response:

Thank you for your response, Cooper. No, I don’t gouge my own cane. I’m a life-long amateur and only started shaping my own cane a few years ago. I’ve been buying my cane from Ke-G in Australia though the cane seems to come from Singapore.

I like the idea of the wider shape, but often have had a hard time keeping the pitch up. I may try experiementing with the shorter windows as you suggest.

My response:

Keep in mind that K.Ge usually gouges for German style reeds, hence, the gouge is probably for a setup with much thinner sides. He might try to compensate for this by thickening them, but that still doesn’t change the fact that the blade curve is set up for a German style, and thus will not optimally work for American-scraped reeds. (I could never use a gouging machine set up for German scraped reeds, even if it was a double radius gouge with the ability to thicken sides.)

If you have a chance, I would strongly suggest Mr. Weber’s grimaud gouged cane available at Weber Reeds. I also recall Mark Chudnow’s gouge as being a decent gouge, although I haven’t used it in over a year.

I will be moving to the States next Monday. Once set up, I will also be selling gouged cane for probably $2.00 a piece. If you don’t get the results you wish with the RDG 2, I’d be happy to sell you a model reed for my usual rate, and sell you some gouged cane (the exact same gouge that I use on my own reeds) for you to duplicate my results.

Do you have other shapes other than the RDG 2? I would say that it is certainly not a “reedmaker friendly” shape to begin shaping/making reeds with. Most people prefer to start with the RDG -1 or 1 before they attempt such a wide shape as the RDG 2.

The advantages of working with the wider shape is it is more forgiving of knife technique mistakes, and does offer more immediate vibration. The downside is as you have discovered, keeping up the pitch.

Post note: Although I’m not 100% sure of Ke.G’s gouge, I am pretty sure of this fact (about it’s gouge). If you look at K.Ge’s “American Style” reeds, they’re clearly profiled, and don’t really look like the typical American scraped reeds. There’s no clear definition of the heart to window area, and no thinness in the windows behind the heart. Plus, I’ve never seen any American oboist who leaves a spine like that.

“CLICK”

The picture is out of focus (and focused on strangely focused on Barbara in the Background instead.)

It was taken with a Samsung 5.0 mega pixel digital camera (the same camera I take all my other reed pictures with).

But you can clearly hear the “click” as I set the overlap.

Here’s the second “Click” clip

Still trying to clarify overlap

A reader writes:

I still don’t get what you mean by “set” the overlap. I set my overlap when I tie, by folding the cane onto the staple with a slight overlap. Then (the abbreviated version), I scrape some, clip the tip, and scrape some more.How do you “set” the overlap once you’ve already tied, and what makes the click sound? Is it grabing the two blades with one hand - with the tip facing you, left thumb on bottom, left first finger on top and a sliding motion?

• “I set my overlap when I tie.” - I also tie so that my top blade is slide over to the right. But this isn’t setting the overlap.
• “How do you “set” the overlap once you’ve already tied” - Yes, I slide the blades apart (although I guess I’d put my right index on bottom and right thumb on top). Not a lot, just enough to click.
• “What makes the click sound? Is it grabbing the two blades in one hand?” - I’m not sure your question. What about the gouge makes the click sound or something I do with my fingers? The click sound comes from the internal shape of the blade curvature and how it gouges out and shapes the inside of the cane.

Now, what does the click say about the gouge? (or how does it function?) The overlap ensures that the side of the reed is set into the other blade’s gouged surface. The “Click” ensures that the entire side of the blade (not just a small part of it) is set. Sometimes when I tie I get most of the reed overlapped, but particularly up by the tip it doesn’t completely overlap. Most often, my click comes from the middle of the reed, up to the tip clicking into place. The lower part of the reed is already overlapped by the tie.

This tool is going to be one of your most valuable measuring instruments in your box. It includes a radius gage that is viewed from the top so youcan use a light source behind it very easily. it also includes a width gauge to check that your cane is planed to the correct widge to be used with the Opus 1 gouger. 8mm is the recommended maximum cane width.

- Robin Driscoll’s Website.

Some have also been asking me what about the gouge encourages the overlap to click into place? It’s difficult to describe since one can never describe a gouging blade curve perfectly. Even specific figures do not explain the rate of taper and what happens in between the locations of measurements of those numbers. But in general, I find that having the correct rate of taper on the side is critical to getting a decent overlap click. For example, I have a radius measurement point locator little thingy that you can buy from Mr. Driscoll over at Opus 1 Gougers (go under recommended tools). Although it does not tell me everything about the rate of taper of the gouge, it is a tool that allows me to mark locations so that I can measure the thickness of different points of my gouge with a dial indicator. For example, I know figures on my graf blade need to fall around (.62, .58, .52, .43). For these figures, the first measurement is the very center, and the following measurements are measured at 1mm out from the center consecutively. (Although I warn you, these numbers are very “loose”. For example, the first ratio of .62-.58 is equally affected by the width of much internal spine which is built in from a double radius gouge. If the internal spine is too wide, you will have a dull sounding reed with inflexibility in pitch.)

Where is all this leading me to? Back to the click, of course! I find that a good click often depends on if the rate of taper on the sides tapers fast enough. For example. If the last measurements are .52 and .48, it often doesn’t want to click audibly for me (although this isn’t always the case.) Similarly, if the last points measured at .46 and .43, I wouldn’t expect a “click” either.

Philly Style EH Horn Reeds.

On the oboe Bboard, a regular reader asked:

I just made my first two English Horn Reeds…Basically, I followed the instructions in the Weber/Capps manual/video. Their advice is to use the same basic Philly structure as for oboe reeds, but with the narrow waist of the hourglass closer to the base of the reed (thread/wire) and with less exaggerated transitions to the heart and less thinning of the tip, in other words a much more uniform scrape but still Philly style. At the same time, I bought 4 reeds from 2 makers…one of them i would say makes a V-shaped tip and the rest of the reed is scraped uniformly but still fairly opaque to the back light, but with a slightly visible spine…but no heart to speak of. The other is the same but it looks like some attempt is made to scrape barely discernible windows into the otherwise uniform back in the same place you would normally find windows on an oboe reed. I’ve concluded that EH reeds are MUCH more forgiving than oboe reeds..you can get a decent sound just by thinning the back and putting a tip on the thing, not nearly as much futzing…beyond that I’m sure there are many nuances.

But my question is….is there really such a thing as a Philly style EH reed with deep windows and a protruding heart? And what do the really good EH players do?

I responded with this:

Well, have been looking for my “reed reference storage case” for the last several days and have come up short. But let me state what I do remember.

Mr. Weber made a special EH reed for me (he doesn’t sell ones he makes, but made it for me to reference from). Just as his book states, it looks exactly like one of his oboe reeds, but on a bigger scale. No, he doesn’t take as much out of the back, (the thickest place in the heart on his oboe reeds is probably around .45, while the thinnest place in the windows of his oboe reeds is around .29), the difference is quite noticeable, and does produce the regular curvy side profile that is displayed in his book to describe oboe reeds. So in this regard, I suppose it would still be considered a “Philly style” EH reed.

After searching in all of my reeds, I finally found the one I was looking for.

The reed on the right is one I scraped. The reed on the left is from Mr. Weber.

Final Note: Measuring the thickness of Mr. Weber’s reed, the thickest place of the spine (the back of the heart) measures at .52. The thickest place of the heart which is half-way between the spine and the rail on all sides measures .47. The thinnest place of the windows (right behind the heart) measures .31. So I guess he does take just as much out of the back! But leaves more on the spine/heart. I know that if he was using a wider shape, he most certainly wouldn’t be able to take that much out, but he uses a narrower shape, which is a copy of Rosenblatt’s. Mr. Weber further stated that Carlos Coehlo’s shaper tip is also a copy of Rosenblatt’s but a bit narrower.

I’m going to copy Mr. Weber’s Rosenblatt tip in about a month. He’s going to teach me how to make shaper tips. Anyone interested in buying one?

Reader’s Question: Overlap clarification

Hey, I saw your entry yesterday talking about
Overlapping. What the heck do you mean by”The overlap HAS TO make the “Click” sound. The louder
the “Click” the better.”

I tie with a bit of a right-hander’s overlap, but I
never try to adjust it when making a reed. I know the
Jay Light book suggests closing the opening by making
more of an overlap, then trimming the sides to hold
it. Honestly, I’d tried that long ago and always
ended up with leaky sides afterwards, so I don’t do
that anymore.

Also, do you tie with the ears on or do you cut them
off before tying?

What I mean is when I set the overlap, there should be a natural “click” sound. If it isn’t there, it tells me the blades aren’t pushing together tightly, thus making the sides tight. This may lead to the overlap slipping further, as was first question asked. The louder the click sound, the better because it tells me how tight the sides are.

I’m not sure what the reader meant by adjust the overlap while making a reed. I tie the reed with an overlap, and set the overlap only after I have scraped down the tip and clipped. There is naturally a click sound to the setting of the overlap.

I never control the opening by making the overlap more and cutting off the sides. It affects the shape in a way I normally don’t like.